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Overview
The first episode of our EMEA Startup Podcast Series ‘Startups of today for the impact of tomorrow' focuses on the way startups are supported by accelerators.
Abhijeet Malik, EMEA Startup Network Driver, Senior Manager, PwC Belgium, is joined by Hanna Asmussen, Founder and CEO of Localyze and Magali Roy Bentley, Associate with Norrsken Impact Accelerator, in this conversation which aims to answer questions like:
- How can startups stay true to themselves while going through accelerators?
- What is the right timing to join an accelerator? And,
- What things should startups pay attention to while picking an accelerator?
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References to ""we"" or ""our"" are used interchangeably to convey the perspective of a collective of people or a broader societal context. This language does not refer to, or imply, the perspective of PwC. PwC refers to the PwC network and/or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. Please see www.PwC.com/structure for further details
Transcript
Introducing Hanna Assmussen, Founder and CEO of Localyze
Abhijeet Malik: Hi everyone, I'm Abhijeet from PwC and welcome to our podcast series "Startups of today for the impact of tomorrow". In this episode, we are going to be discussing the relationship between startups and accelerators. And, I'm so excited that we have two wonderful guests to discuss this exactly with me. First of all, we have Hanna who is a founder and CEO of Localyze. And, I'm actually going to ask you, Hannah, to introduce yourself, but also tell us a bit more about your company and why did you decide to found it?
Hanna Assmussen: Yes, of course. I'll try to keep it short. Very excited to be here today. My name is Hannah, originally from Germany. I'm living in Lisbon right now and I grew up in the middle of nowhere in Germany but then decided to move abroad when I was 15. And, that sparked a lot of excitement for doing that more often. But what I have always encountered is that travelling is easy but if you want to work abroad, it's incredibly hard with everything you need around immigration and relocation. And, I decided to turn that into a company together with my two co-founders. And, that was almost four years ago now. It's been a very interesting journey. What we do now is we help individuals and companies with all those topics around immigration, relocation, and HR to track all of that. We're a company of 75 people right now spread across Europe, and it's been a very interesting journey. So, I'm happy to talk about that today.
Introducing Magali Roy Bentley, Associate with Norrsken Impact Accelerator
Abhijeet: Wonderful. And, having lived in five countries myself, I can tell you it is sometimes something that someone needs a lot of help with. So, it's good that you have a solution for that. And, introducing my second guest: Magali. Magali is an associate with Norrsken Impact Accelerator. So, Magali, welcome. Please do introduce yourself; tell us a bit more about the Norrsken Impact Accelerator. And, how is it that it is so famous and so successful, and that so many people know about it and apply for it?
Magali Roy Bentley: Thank you so much for having me as well. Super happy to be here. The Norrsken Impact Accelerator is running its second year now, so we're still relatively new and we're learning a lot, but we're enjoying the journey as well and getting to onboard 20 impact startups. So, we began last year and then we took on 20, like I said, impact startups that are going to somehow make a big difference in the world. But also, at Norrsken, we believe a lot in the purpose of having both impact and business intertwined, so that as the business grows, so will the impact. So, it's not only focusing on impact, but also the ability to create profit hand in hand. And so, because of the role of Norrsken in the past few years, even before the accelerator opened, there's been a lot of traction there and the network that they have built has been fantastic. Which was also then – of course – the seed for the accelerator and how it began when we noticed that we have such a great network around us that we really want to tap into. Because at the core of what we're doing, in the whole ecosystem that is Norrsken, is that we're trying to promote impact entrepreneurs through this ecosystem so that it was natural to then open an accelerator and tap into this.
How do you stay true to your startup when going through an accelerator?
Abhijeet: Thank you. So, the reason I'm so excited to have the two of you is because of our theme today, which is around startups and accelerators. We know that startup founders have great ideas and great products but sometimes they could benefit from the expertise of going through an accelerator, getting the right introductions to the investors, to mentors, to new markets and maybe just some advice. That's probably the reason why startups consider going to accelerators. So, correct me if I'm wrong, Hanna, your company has actually been through two different accelerators already, right?
Hanna: Actually, three. Afterwards, I had to think about it, and then it turned out actually even more. Yes, definitely. And, I think for us, it was really super helpful in the trajectory of the company.
Abhijeet: So, one of the things that I think a lot of our listeners would be interested in is your startup. And, you obviously want to go through an accelerator for all the benefits but how do you stay sort of honest and truthful to the origins of your company? Is that something that you thought about before applying to an accelerator? Is it something that's going to still keep you loyal to your origins?
Hanna: Yeah, I think that definitely you really have to look for what is a fit, also stage-wise. And I think even more: Can I stay true to the companies? Do I keep enough ownership? I think that's an important topic because a lot of accelerators come at a cost in terms of equity, and I think that's probably the biggest risk. But you really have to look for what is the benefit, literally like, cost and benefit. And, we did two programs where we had to give away equity and one that was equity free. The third one that I actually forgot was sponsored by the German government. It's like the German accelerator where they help you with international expansion in the US. And for us, each of the accelerators that we did were good at the stage that we went to and also in terms of knowledge that we had previously. So, if you started a company before having an existing network, you might have very different needs in terms of what you need from an accelerator and you might get a lot from the network. But there are a lot of points influencing that decision and I think there you really have to consider that. And also more of the long-term impact, because when you go into an accelerator, typically the company is very small and it is hard to imagine that it can be like how you think about the equity five years ahead. But I think this is just something super important to consider.
What is the right time to join an accelerator?
Abhijeet: So staying on that, what would be your recommendation in terms of how a startup or founder should self-assess that this is the right time for us to consider an accelerator?
Hanna: Yeah, so there are different things. First, I would always look at what is the focus of that accelerator, what can they provide? Is it, for example, access to investors? Is it access to potential customers? Is it great mentors and knowledge? I think there are various factors around that I can maybe share from our perspective. So, when we started out, we all came from different backgrounds, but we didn't have any access to the startup world, so we didn't have any mentors that we could go to, any investors that we could go to. And so, for us, when we looked for the first accelerator, it was like, okay, we really need someone for those first steps. And then we look for what their focus is. What can they really support you with? So, for example, in Hamburg, the accelerator that we did is like Next Commerce accelerator, which is kind of adjusted. Like it's not 100% what you would associate us with, but they had super interesting companies they were backed by. And so that gave us a great first network to get test customers to develop the product with.
And, I think that accelerators back then were super young, so we couldn't look at what portfolio they already had. And, so that was like, okay, we need someone for those first steps. The second accelerator that we did is probably the most famous one: Y Combinator (YC). And, there you have a very big set of portfolio companies and alumni that you could also talk to in terms of what benefit you get out of it. And, there was also, of course, the brand that we got with it. And then for the third one, for the German accelerator, it was right after YC and we wanted to stay in the United States and explore the market a bit. They had a great network of mentors, so also there was a perfect fit. But we also talked to alumni, and I think that is something that I would definitely do. Kind of like, do your own due diligence, talk to alumni, because some accelerators also promise a lot that then they cannot deliver, or maybe also it's not 100% of a fit. So, I think that's really something that I would always do.
Should Accelerators take equity in Accelerators?
Abhijeet: I can completely relate to your feeling as you said, you and your team had, when you were coming together to start your company. Because I have wanted to work in the startup field and I have chosen the safer option to work in it from a PwC perspective. But Magali, coming to you. This issue that Hanna raised is very interesting regarding equity. So, I believe that the Norrsken Impact Accelerator actually does take equity in the companies that are going through the program. Why is that and why do you believe that that's actually the right thing to do?
Magali: Well, again, it also depends on what the startup wants and what they're looking for. I think Hanna put it really well, ‘what you should be looking for’ and you should be talking with alumni, making sure that it's a fit. So also, that's a question that you need to take into consideration yourself if you're going to be wanting to pay a program fee or say okay, to give some equity. And on our side, that is what we do. And, we chose this as the best fit for us and what we provide because we're trying to provide aligned incentives even past the program. And, we think that by having a little bit of skin in the game, that means that we really want them to succeed and we want them to expand, to grow as much as possible. And so, it's not just the program fee. And then we give them a high five when they leave and then maybe we don't talk with them again. We do our best to make sure that we can still provide them with the help that they need, if that's networks or connections. And so I think that by having this sort of aligned incentives you are showing as well to the world that you really believe in this startup. And so because we take right now 20 per batch, we're also saying that these 20 that we've vetted, we've looked at, we believe in them and we believe in them enough as well to put equity, to put some money in here as well. But like I said, it's a choice. For us this is what makes sense. We're doing a boutique accelerator; we're really focusing on some producing a really high quality accelerator with equity in the game. But if a startup wants to pay the program fee, then also that is something that I wouldn't recommend one way or the other because I think it really depends on what the startup's needs are.
Abhijeet: Okay, that's interesting. And, just to come back to that, the 20 short listed companies that you have, from your point of view, if I understand correctly, it's not just about the equity. The equity is about the commitment that your accelerator is making into that story, for example. Which is quite interesting to hear that perspective from both sides. But I'm sure Magali, you have had discussions with some of the startups which are coming through your program which have sort of asked the same question which is “you're taking equity?” We are obviously sort of interested in your accelerator, but how did those discussions go? Or, you were able to sort of convince them, in the sense that they could stay true to their purpose by staying in your program.
Magali: Yes, good question. So, we really also push on the fact that if you're joining an accelerator, it's for a purpose, it's not just for fun or anything flashy, you're going to be getting something out of it. And, the whole point of an accelerator is in the word, it's to accelerate your growth. So, if you're coming to join an accelerator and you're going to be taking equity then we're also putting on our side of the table the promise as well that we're really going to push you forward. And in that respect, we're going to do our best to increase your valuation. Make sure that you also get to the stage that you require to make sure that other connections or potential investors are going to be able to notice you. So, we really see that it's not just a ‘take’. We're doing a ‘give and take’ situation here.
What makes Accelerators popular and stand out?
Abhijeet: So, in my introduction, I actually mentioned, ‘how famous is your accelerator?’ Because I want to point out the fact that the 20 are the actual participants, but you get far more applications than that. But even for the 20 that you are taking in just a few years, your accelerator has made a name for itself, at least in the Stockholm ecosystem, but more broadly, internationally as well. What's been that secret to the success of your accelerator? Spreading that word, but also reflecting the number of applications you're getting.
Magali: Yes, definitely. So, I think that we can start off from the broader circle first, which is Norrsken, and the brand that they have created. And as you mentioned, they have created a really strong brand in the Nordics, but they're also starting to expand this. So, for example, we also have a house, a Norrsken house in Kigali, Rwanda. So, we also have a very large presence beginning to spread as well in sub-Saharan Africa. And so, just like I said, starting from that part of the circle, we've been able to then harness a lot of that network that was created as well with the founder, Nicholas Albert. And so that was a really good ground to begin the platform to then create the accelerator. And so we've been able to tap into those networks as well. But there's been a lot of thought that's gone into how to make this a really unique accelerator and make sure that we're going to be providing something that startups need that's not necessarily already on the market. And so, as I mentioned before, we really want to be this boutique accelerator that really tailors to the needs of the startups. And, I think that if you look as well at our alumni base and how happy they were with the accelerator in 2021. We've really nailed that, and we've done a really good job. And so, I think that with that you then spread the word and not only amongst the alumni and the people that they know, but as well the mentors that we have on board that are absolutely fantastic and they spread from impact entrepreneurs to unicorns to major investors and they also have a fantastic experience within the accelerator themselves as mentors. And, especially because of one of the primary components as well. Which is the impact angle. We really focus on companies that are trying to make a difference for good in the world and I think that is so needed and so important. And these mentors, they see that as well, and therefore the word spreads because this is a really important topic to make sure that we can accelerate startups that are trying to do good.
Abhijeet: Thanks for that. So actually Hanna, if you can help me with the startup perspective there. So, you've been through three accelerators. Being through that journey itself was one thing but now, after coming through as an alumnus of those programs, do the things that Magali is saying, does that resonate with you? Those introductions and those mentors? Has that journey sort of continued for you in the long run and perhaps not just for Localyze, but for other participants of your program?
Hanna: Yeah, I would say it depends. I think to be honest, in Localyze’s example, we have kind of made that step-by-step transition. Where once we joined the next accelerator, the first one didn't provide that much value anymore. Because then, for example, the first one that we went through was incredibly helpful in the first year. But then the mentor network after joining YC, it's like a different story. But I think then if you get to that point, then it was actually successful, because then you accelerated the transition of the startup to the next level. And I think that's also it. If you can provide value for the next five years, the startup is probably not as successful as you wish it to be. So that's why I think there's an end to it. With Y Combinator, I think there's a bit of a different story just because they've been active now for such a long time, for more than ten years I think. And so, they have an alumni network where you have other unicorns and you can reach out to them, you have a forum, et cetera. And so, I think then you get even more value, not even from the mentors, but other alumni for example.
What YC does very well there is that they have a forum where everyone can ask questions. And so, I think that is super helpful, literally for every stage, like you continue to have that value but I think that's been something where what an accelerator can do is just try to get the best startups to create that alumni network. I think that's also still the beauty of YC. And then otherwise for the German accelerator, it was always for us, we knew that for that specific period where we were looking at the US market, there, they were incredibly helpful. But it was always tied to that specific timeframe, which I think is also fine. So again, coming to the point, what do you want to get out of it? So, I think that YC was the most expensive accelerator for us. It was, I think, 7% (equity) that they took. And so we knew that we got the brand, we got access to investors and access to the alumni networks. Also, they're like, you don't really have a mentor network. So, I think that's why it depends. But yeah, you have to make that calculation, what you get out of it for what timeframe.
How should startups research and select accelerators?
Abhijeet: So, as they say, things are always best in hindsight. So let me ask the same question to you but please imagine yourself at the beginning of your process when you were looking at the accelerators. What are the questions that you would recommend that startups ask around? Or, the research that they should do regarding the accelerators and that connection as to themselves, what their needs are and which accelerator fits that need?
Hanna: Yeah, so first of all, I would really ask the critical question: Can I get there otherwise? Who do I get access to for example? I think that's the thing with mentors, personally, I think you can always get access to mentors yourself. And so, this is like something just as an example, I even reached out to people via LinkedIn. And if now I would reach out to the founder of Stripe, maybe now I'm in a position where that would actually work, but I think three years ago that wouldn't have worked. But I probably don't get that access, but I get access to founders who are maybe one step ahead, who raised the first seed round. And so, I think that is really something where you are sometimes surprised by how much you can get out of an existing network. There's always someone who knows someone. But for us, in the beginning, we really thought we didn't even know whom to ask, so we're quite far removed. And I think like there it was just like, okay, this can actually be super helpful, but I think that's just something that I would ask because very often it's also like what I mentioned initially with the test companies that we were expecting out of our first accelerator.
In the end, from the 20 companies that the accelerator was backed by, one of them agreed to be like a test customer like the others. We still had to find someone else. So, they really are very critical, okay. And ask all of those questions to an alumni, like, okay, how helpful have they actually been? Because I think also every investor, a lot of investors, also receive funds. I would say like, yeah, we're incredibly helpful, we can help you with everything. And then it's like, that's like the most critical question to actually ask yourself and try to make a calculation of that equity. I think that's something important depending on how much equity you're giving away. For the first accelerator, we gave away 5%, but they also had an option to do 10% and then you got more investment. And I'm quite critical of that because I think like 10% at that early stage, it's a lot and that can really change your cap table dynamics later on. So, be very critical and try to. I think at the beginning people are impatient. I want to do the first step, but try to think a bit further ahead. And I tried to think about the implications and for me, one of the best decisions that we took back then is that we only took 25K investment and I took the 5% instead of like 10%. And I wouldn't have imagined that impact later on. So, I think like, that kind of like, to sum it up, a kind of non-equity, non-money impact and try to question that and try to verify what you actually get out of there. If there's any other way to get that on the equity side, try not to make the mistakes and try to also do the maths behind I think those are the two most important points.
What sort of help do accelerators provide to startups?
Abhijeet: Thank you. So, Magali, the Norrsken Impact Accelerator, coming to the point of the investors. So, how good are the investors or the network that you're able to bring in for the startups which sort of come through the program? And just for our viewers, though, I am mindful that I am mispronouncing Norrsken, it's because I am hopeless at pronouncing the actual name, which is Norrsken.
Magali: I think also the Swedes say Norrsken, I believe, but I also think that I'm saying it wrong, but that's maybe the fun part of it. Everybody has some different way of saying it, but all I can say is that I think that we have some fantastic investors on board. But like I said, the purpose of our accelerator is to connect you with people. So, people who might help you with your business model or scaling, or even pitching, or potential investors. But we're not making a promise that when you come here, the investors you will be meeting with are going to invest with you. But what's useful about those connections is that they can connect you to other people or they can also give you some advice about how to do a proper fundraising strategy, about how to think about investing in the next year’s time. There are nuggets of opportunity in any connection that you make if you just try to make the most of it. So, I think that it is also coming in with the mindset when you come into an accelerator that you're going to be offered some opportunities and you really need to make the most of yourself and the team to make the most of them and really put the work in at the end of the day.
Abhijeet: So, one step before that. I mean, obviously you've selected these startups and then what you're saying is it's also up to them, right? Like how they sort of use the opportunities, maybe taking your example, but you can even talk more generally of other accelerators. How do they generally tend to help get those startups a bit more prepared? A bit more ready?
Magali: Yeah. So, I mean, it depends. Again, on the accelerator, the first thing is a network. That's what the accelerator is trying to help you get the network that you need. And, then for us, what we do is we try to provide a lot of tailored learning to them so we can actually have such things as learning sessions where we talk about fundraising strategies. General marketing strategies. Scaling strategies. Help with the legal side and these are optional as well because we're very aware that when you're starting a company, you're going to be spending a lot of time starting your company. You're not going to be wanting to sit in a classroom all day, you need to be working on the operation. So, we do a lot of things that are going to be optional as well and that means that you come to the sessions that are going to be of most use to you. So, if you think, oh that's fantastic, I need to be working on my business model development, then you go to that session and we're trying to as well make them as interesting as possible to the batch that we have. We get on 20, like I said, and we do a selection of over 2000 applications in three to four months and then when they come on board, we've had a lot of time to think about them, to talk with them a little bit really, like I said, try to tailor it to them.
So we then get what their needs are and then we will offer that to them. And, these training sessions as well as some lunch and learns and then we have a lot of pitch training sessions as well because for us we have an eight week sprint. And, then at the end of this it ends with Investor Day and then they come on stage and we don't know if maybe it's the first time they're going to be on stage in front of hundreds of people and it can be nerve wracking, as well. So, we want them to be able to feel confident on stage. And also, this comes to another really important point, which is being able to clearly communicate what you do. That is such an important part for startups to be able to do that effectively and simply. And so, then we spend a lot of time as well actually on pitch training.
How can you balance running a company and accelerator coaching?
Abhijeet: That's great. Hannah, maybe let's pick on your experience. What was the balance when you were going through those programs between focus on your new company or going through all the lessons?
Hanna: That's a very good question and I think that's actually the very tricky part. I'm always a fan of flexibility because it's incredibly hard to tailor sessions kind of like to a wider group of startups because also it depends at that stage. It really depends on where the founders come from, like what background knowledge they have. And so, for some it is pitch training, for some it's kind of like business basics, for some it's like, I don't know, financial modelling, you name it. And so, this is like something where in the beginning for the first accelerator, we started out always trying to join all the sessions and at some point we just said, okay, half of that is not useful because there was a lot of feature ‘B2C’ startups in that batch and we're like not applicable, so we didn't join anymore. And then it was rather that we tried to get something out of mentors, and I think like pitch training, things like that, something that's probably more general. But especially, like business models or even pricing sales attachments, I think there's such a big difference. So, I think that's really something where mentors can often be a more flexible option because then people can also choose: Who do I want to talk to?
And I think with the sessions I could recommend and from a startup perspective really try to be very strict with your time. What I found super interesting there is like the approach of YC, you didn't get a lot of input. So I think we only met once per week and then we had dinner together with the startups that were in your subgroup and then you always had like a speaker there with founders of Airbnb and others. So really good input, but the rest of the time it was just at home, you live together with the co-founders, and you don't do anything else but working. And, I think they also said we are the last batch that was in person, by the way, and they said, okay, everyone has to go to San Francisco. I think that was just, it was such a mentality where you were sitting together, and everyone was working incredibly hard. You really felt bad if you took a break on Sunday. And yeah, I think there is just a different mentality, different approach. And then for the last accelerator, we got some input, like some sessions again, but also there we try to be very strict on what do we do and what not, because I think also, especially, at a later stage, it becomes even harder because the trajectories of the startup charts start to diverge more like your knowledge level. So, I think they're kind of like shifting more towards maybe some very specific mentors that you need and rather like less input.
Abhijeet: Well, I really like your idea of reaching out for mentors yourself on LinkedIn. That's something that I should do in finding mentors. Although, no one's ever approached me on LinkedIn as a mentor. So that probably says that I am not an expert on anything.
Hanna: Maybe it (your Linkedin profile) should say something specifically like: ‘Hey, I'm a mentor, consultant, et cetera.’ You have to pimp your LinkedIn profile.
What do accelerators look for in startups?
Abhijeet: That’s a good pointer to all our viewers. And Magali, we are coming to the end of our discussion, and I wanted to end by also asking you one step even before you're helping the startups prepare, which is when you're selecting them, your accelerator is focused on impact, right? So, you already have a set criteria and when you're evaluating, let's say 2000 startups, I'm sure you must have a sort of set criteria around that. But really is it just the criteria or are there other things that you're looking for in the startup when you're making that decision? That hey, they make the final cut of the 20 or they don't? What are those things that you're looking for?
Magali: Yeah, so all of them arrived here from, coming from, different backgrounds, they arrived here from different paths. So, there is no one size fits all. And then also it's hard to say, it's hard to explain what the X factor is. That is the whole point of the X factor, as well. But then generally we do have some sort of guidelines that we follow to make sure that the chances of success of this company are high and that has to be aligned and inside within the impact as well that they will produce. Because of course we saw a lot of good companies as well that were fantastic, but the impact angle was perhaps not there. So just to have to say that of course. And then we looked a lot at the team that is of course crucial and so specifically as well the co-founders and the experience that they have, but then also the team dynamics that they have and the people on the team to be able to produce their product, whether it be hardware or software. And there is like a flow diagram for each one of those. So, if it's hardware then you want more technical expertise on the team.
If it's software, then you just want some experience in the fintech space beforehand. So, it all has to make sense at the end of the day when you follow that through, that okay, these all make sense for a really strong team together. And then as well, just in terms of the selection side, if I'm thinking as well about being in the shoes of the startup, you know your product so well that sometimes I feel it's possible to lose the overview of how you're sharing it to the world. So, in terms of having reviewed over 2000 applications, sometimes we received some applications that were very overly complicated. And so if you can't tell your idea in a really simple form it's going to be difficult for investors to try to sit down and digest that. Because they tend to be looking at maybe hundreds of applications on the go. And so that also comes down to maybe having a really nice, refined pitch deck as well. But then in terms of the criteria for what makes up an excellent startup then it would be the team and a solution, when you see a novel solution coming up, because sometimes you have sort of iterations of ideas that are already out there and they could be good, but when you see a really novel solution it really does stand out and it's quite impressive.
So, we're also looking for things that are people who are trying to tackle problems in the world from a completely different angle and it's super inspiring.
Closing advice for startups and accelerators from Hanna and Magali
Abhijeet: Great to hear. So, Hanna, my last question to you would be something of a reverse. Right from the journey that you started to where you are and all the programs that you've been part of. If there are any accelerators listening to our podcast, what would be your sort of suggestions to them as suggestions from a startup to accelerators? What is something that they should keep in mind?
Hanna: So, maybe that's more kind of like from my wish list perspective. But the big benefit that I see in accelerators is that they can bring more diverse people to the startup world because of what typically happens and there's even specific things like some VC funds have specific accelerators for that internally. That makes you think kind of like, it's a self-feeding system. So, then you have, you say hey, if you work at InterCom, N26 or whatever, then you want to find your company, then you can directly approach us here. But for people who are not from the tech. sector, who haven't studied at business schools, it's a lot harder to penetrate the system. And so, I think that is really something that accelerators can do. So, I would really try to invest a lot in finding the startups that otherwise, probably founders of companies who probably haven't even heard of the term startup but could become something that can really help the world. I don't know, like building a great product. I think that is something that I would definitely do because this is where accelerators could provide most value and yeah, it's not easy but start building networks with lesser-known universities going into maybe also like regions that are not like the prime tech regions yet.
So, this is something where I would pay close attention to because I think otherwise someone who worked at N26 probably doesn't need to accelerate because they have an existing network like they can get all of that somewhere else. And so that would be my number one takeaway.
Abhijeet: Wow. Any final words? Magali or Hanna?
Magali: I actually just wanted to add one last thing that when we're looking at applications and we're talking right now all about accelerators and the benefits of accelerators. There is one caveat to that, though, that I would like to add, and it's something called ‘accelerator-hopping’. And it's when you potentially attend like four or five accelerators. And the whole purpose of an accelerator is to push you to the next level. And so, the accelerator within itself is not an issue that you're attending them, but if you're attending several accelerators and without significant growth or without significant milestones to show for that afterwards, then you're not questioning what's wrong with the accelerator but you're questioning as well potentially what's wrong with the company for not going through all these accelerators and not seeing this growth. So, I just want to give that as a caveat as well for startups out there to not try to go into as many as possible. And I think we've tried to make that clear as well today with Hanna, that you should really put a lot of effort into choosing which accelerator you would like to join and a lot of research into that because it's very important to make sure that it's the right one for you.
Abhijeet: Wow. I knew that we were going to have a good discussion but it's so nice to get new insights and especially, from both perspectives: from the starter perspective, from the accelerator perspective. So, I'd like to thank the two of you for your time, for coming in for our podcast.
For our viewers, I'd like to say join us next time for another episode to hear such great stories and great perspectives around ‘Startups of today for the impact of tomorrow’. Thank you.