Podcast transcript: Episode 29- Future of Journalism - Future Proofing the Newsroom

Future of Journalism - Future Proofing the Newsroom

Host: Hi, everyone. Welcome to The Experience Pod where we focus on emerging technologies, trends and their impact on the Nigerian and African business landscape. My name is Emeka Chime, associate director of Tax Services here at PwC Nigeria. 

As we all know, the world of journalism is undergoing a technological revolution as we speak. The profession has changed dramatically over the years, all thanks to the internet, which has been the biggest disrupter of the media environment. With newspapers’ circulations declining, the internet with its vast web of information has opened up new sources of content for journalists to explore and report on. Perhaps, the most intriguing development is the use of AI, Artificial Intelligence by news organisations like the Associated Press, and the Los Angeles Times in areas such as news gathering, production, distribution, etc. One of the main applications of AI in news reporting is in the field of automated journalism, which involves using algorithms to automatically generate news stories based on data and other imputes. For example, we hear that the Associated Press uses an AI tool called Automated Insights to generate thousands of earnings reports per quarter. AI can also be used to analyse large data sets and identify trends and patterns that might not be immediately apparent to human analysts. For example, the LA Times uses an AI tool called Falcon—an interesting name—to analyse crime data and identify patterns that can help reporters identify and report on emerging trends and crime. 

So we see these very useful areas that AI helps. These AI programs are capable of generating automated content, tagging digital texts and even reformatting articles for maximum readability. While technology has certainly brought some incredible advancements in the field of journalism, it will never replace the need for talented and experienced reporters. From breaking news to local events and public policy forums, journalists play a vital role in keeping us informed and engaged with the world around us. So while we may marvel at the wonders of technology, the importance of the human element in the world of journalism is critical for the human feel. After all, it takes a human touch to capture the nuances and complexities of events and compellingly convey them. In its relatively brief time on the airwaves, so far, Arise News has established itself as a leading voice in the Nigerian media landscape. The channel's broadcasting style is characterised by intellectual rigour and the strong personalities of its commentators and presenters, such as Charles Aniagolu, our own Rotus who is here with us, Rufai Oseni and Dr. Reuben Abati. Arise News distinguishes itself via its global and sophisticated perspective of its news, extensive business news and strong online presence, leveraging its platform in reaching the younger audience.

To understand the disruptive effects of technology in the newsroom and begin to envisage what the future of journalism looks like, we are pleased to welcome Arouture Oddiri, a news anchor at Arise News for the Global Business Reports, as well as a business radio broadcaster with Smooth 98.1 FM, to join us on the Experience Pod. Rotus, it's very nice to be with you here today.

Aruoture Oddiri: Emeka, it's a pleasure. Thank you, guys, for having me. You guys are doing some great work with your Pod at PwC.

Host: Thank you. Thank you. That's what the PwC experience is all about. Maybe I'll start by saying I'm a big fan of your work. And it's a big honour sitting here with you. And I'll just ask, how does it feel to be interviewed? You know you’re always the one doing the interview, how does it feel?

Aruoture Oddiri: So yeah, I know. It’s a bit surreal. ‘Cause I'm on the other side. But, look, I'm humbled that you guys watch the show. We have a responsibility to the public to give them the news as it happens, to be factual and balanced. And so, it's great to be here.

Host: Absolutely, and you guys are doing such a great job. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Thank you. 

Host: So let's talk with some background. For those who may not be familiar with you, Mr Arouture, can you tell me if I'm getting the pronunciation right?

Aruoture Oddiri: Yeah, you are. So it’s ‘arrow’ and then the number 'two' and a 'ray' of sunlight—Aruoture. There you go.

Host: Nice. I wish I had such an explanation for my name, Emeka. But I'll think of something. I can only think of a 'car' at the end. I will look for something for ‘Eme’ later. So in a few sentences, can you tell us about yourself? You have a decade's worth of experience as a research analyst. What spurred you to join Arise News?

Aruoture Oddiri: Emeka, it was complete luck, me even getting into journalism in the first place. I came home, I think about 2010, from the United States after being there for about 12 years and having an internship. I was doing NYSC in one of the financial services companies here in Nigeria. And I was just in traffic and listening to Smooth FM while they were doing the newspaper review. I started sending text messages and interacting because the traffic was so long and I was just sitting there for hours. And it just so happened that they were looking for reviewers for their paper review. So one day while the show was off-air, they sent me a message saying, ‘Hey, we appreciate your insights. Would you like to join us to review newspapers?’ And then, I now took over Business Express which, funny enough, was hosted by one of your prior guests—Tunji Andrews—I think he was on the pod previously. So he asked me if I wanted to take over, I did and then started getting paid for it. So that was radio. From there I went to Nairametrics, started writing for them as a Chief Marketing Officer, then Business Insider as an editor, running teams in Lagos, Accra and Nairobi, and then Arise News just happened to be looking for a business anchor for the Global Business Report. And so Ugodre, who heads Nairametrics, made a recommendation. 

Host: Wow.

Aruoture Oddiri: That's how.

Host: That's how the journey started.

Aruoture Oddiri: That's how the journey started. 

Host: And that’s how the journey is going. It's very interesting. I mean, from what you said, you've almost gone through the full circle of print, radio and TV, how does that all come together? In fact, what are the similarities or dissimilarities between the different kinds of media? And how do you bring that together? 

Aruoture Oddiri: Yeah. The thing is, you're still having to be as factual as possible because you have an audience. I guess there's less of an intimidation factor with print and radio because your audience cannot see you. With radio, they can hear you; with prints, they are just reading what you're writing; and on television, they can see you so you've got to know what you're talking about. So if you're new to it, there's a bit of stage fright. But as we've been told, if you know your facts, you've done your research, you're doing the same thing. So with me (I only cover business) what I do on radio overlaps with television, whereby if inflation comes out today, I'm reporting inflation on radio and television, so it mends together. But then, the research, the back work, it's a lot. 

Host: So you can get all of them.

Aruoture Oddiri: …for all of them. But you know, you have to enjoy what you’re doing. What’s the saying? If you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life.

Host: Oh, interesting. 

Aruoture Oddiri: That helps with fatigue.

Host: Very good method. So my PwC colleagues, please love what you do. So you never work a day in your life like you said. But I just keep thinking about whether one type of media (if you will) involves more rigour and imputes. Because I just think about writing—and maybe this is just me thinking about somebody that has to sit down, write and everything, then it goes to an editor or whomever there is. Do we have that kind of rigour in other forms or is one easier? 

Aruoture Oddiri: Well, so it interlocks right? You have what's called straps at the bottom of your screen when you are reporting something on television, that has to be written, the grammar has to be on point and it has to be in fact, summarised. If you have something long you have to summarise it. For prints, you are writing and reporting what's been happening. You have your opening paragraph, the body and the conclusion, you have to be concise depending on what you're reporting. With radio, you're doing more of speaking, like we're speaking on this pod right now. But for me, that covers bizarre— Anyone else that is reporting sports or politics still has to have done some research, but to your question, the writing is more in the prints and also for television to present what it is that you're putting forward. So that's got to come together. But most of the writing, of course, is going to be happening in print.

Host: Nice. Nice. Nice. Thanks. Thanks for that. So we researched you.

Aruoture Oddiri: Oh you did?

Host: Yeah, we did. And a curious glance at your LinkedIn, we noticed your inclination towards helping brands create content to showcase their products and services. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Right.

Host: Can you tell us how you do this?

Aruoture Oddiri: Yeah, I mean–now that I've joined Arise–that was a past life. That was when I had a little more time. But I feel that brands have to make a connection with customers on a conversational level. I have a big belief that word of mouth is the best way that news spreads and if you want brand identity with customers, that's the best way because it's the most authentic (which is word of mouth). Because it's one person having a conversation with another person and telling them about the experience that they've had—I travelled here, I read this, I bought this, you should try it too. Or I saw this movie. So what I did—at least when I was working in content creation with brands—was to tell them, ‘Look, we have to distil what it is that you're trying to sell to a conversation. And so when—I know, we'll get to podcast maybe later on but the podcast that I created for different brands or little dramatise sales pitches, was always grounded in an environment where two people are having lunch or at the bus stop talking and then you slip in your call to action or your brand identity there in the middle of the conversation.

Host: Interesting, so at a very organic level.

Aruoture Oddiri: Yeah, I think that's the best way to connect with your potential customers and also to sell your brand to them. It's that organic.

Host: Interesting. So it sounds like a lot of work being a content creator in that regard. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Yeah.

Host: So how do you balance the need to deliver accurate and timely news with the pressure to attract and retain viewers? 

Aruoture Oddiri: So the latter is dependent on the former. Yeah. Whether it's Smooth FM, Arise TV or any media organisation, you've— I know there is a rush to be first, to get the breaking news out there but mistakes tend to be made when that happens. So if you are accurate with your news, if you are truthful, balanced, not swaying one way or the other, depending on what you are presenting, whether it's politics, or for my field—business, I deal with numbers(you’re a Tax guy, so you know…) so you know what that's like as far as being accurate with your analysis. So if you do that and you get a reputation for being factual, balanced, and thorough with your work, you will attract the viewers and then you can take liberties. For example, this morning on The Morning Show, I started introducing PDD codes in my business analysis because he was talking about how money is tied to everything. So yeah, you can enjoy rap and so on and use pop culture references. But first I have to do my work, make sure it's thorough and accurate, and then you can...

Host: Spice it up a little bit. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Spice it up a little bit. So when you do that, the viewers will follow.

Host: I like what you said and it resonates with me about how the latter is dependent on the former. Because even here within PwC, (advert check) I lead the Tax Thought Leadership team here at PwC. And most times, there's always a rush to be the first out there. So when there's a Tax development, you want to be the first to publish. But sometimes you might want to think, ‘Okay, how do I analyse this, how do I extract insights and make it maybe more fun, more readable, more relatable to the audience then you might not be the first but you find out that you're able to retain your views.

Aruoture Oddiri: And I need to say I'm a big fan of tax folks because taxes are complex, they are hard. So, Emeka, you're doing the Lord's work, well done.

Host: Yeah, yeah, you are too. So good. 

So after the pandemic hit the world, the number of Internet users has increased tremendously. And most education, work and other communication are now done online. There are about 5.07 billion internet users in the world and as of March, many of them are young people. This has spurred the growth of digital journalism and has allowed for more timely reporting, wider reach and more interactive and multimedia content. It has also disrupted the operating models of the print media. I think the print media is probably one of the most impacted by a sharp decline in readership. Do you think the decline of the print media has affected the quality and diversity of news coverage? Everybody just wants to read the blog, everybody wants to just get the clicks. Has it affected print media?

Aruoture Oddiri: Now, you see, that’s a strong question. There's some context to this. In the West, in the United States, the US Census Bureau puts out some data between 2002 and 2020. The impact on print journalism, so its revenues were down 50%. Periodic publishing items like magazines were down 40%, discs video/physical video down about 88%-- almost collapsing right. So there was an impact there. Nigeria is a little— There’s some context, it's a little different and you have to now question— So first of all, the data is a problem. Circulation of prints in the United States, you can track you can measure but here in Nigeria, it's hard to do that. 

Host: Right. 

Aruoture Oddiri: There is also an issue of readership culture. You just said it yourself, people just want to jump on and read a blog and read the gist. How many people want to open up a newspaper and go through the information there? I mean, you still see individuals gathered around newsstands, they are gisting.

Host: And reading for free. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Thank you sir. That is where I was going. So they read for free, ‘Bros when you finish, pass the paper.’ One paper can be passed to around 10 or 15 people. And then there's the fact that broadband penetration in Nigeria is at 40%. There were plans to get it to 75%, I know the incoming government wants to look at 90 or 95%. So broadband penetration is low. I know that teledensity is high and you've got more phones around and so on, but in the rural areas outside Lagos, Abuja, maybe Port Harcourt, there's still a lot of people who depend on print. And so the traditional measures through which or channels through which people digest news is still there in Nigeria. Now, do we have the data to say that that's not true? We don't, so it's an issue where in your urban centres, Lagos and Abuja and so on with young people, more people on their mobile phones, yes, they are digesting content and maybe print has reduced but for the rural areas, I’m not sure. And then with older Nigerians, my father still reads newspapers—physical newspapers—my uncles, my aunts. Younger people, I will not lie, I haven't bought a newspaper in a while, I digest everything online. And by the way, I should say that This Day newspaper is the sister publication of Arise TV. So I have insights with the publishers that are there so we exchange stories, and so on. 

And the challenge that the print media is facing is still the fact that they have to import items used to publish, the logistics of distributing those papers across the country is there and the cost. But concerning the internet, it has reduced overhead costs whereby, before a news publishing house would have to bring everyone together in a physical place, you type your story and you physically take it to your editor to review. Now they work from home, they use the internet to send their stories and email them, put them on WhatsApp and so on. So they reduce costs. But in terms of the issue of readership and whether it has declined, that is for Nigeria, that is still up in the air. 

Host: Yeah, I like what you said about the differences between the urban and the rural area. I mean, thinking about even maybe the use of radios.

Aruoture Oddiri: Radio is still very popular.

Host: Especially in rural areas with people carrying their small radios and trying to listen. And then even, thinking just up in my head about the impact of traffic on the radio because many people…

Aruoture Oddiri: That’s how I ventured into the media.

Host: Exactly. I can imagine some of Nigeria's particularities will drive the numbers concerning the media. Yeah, interesting. I was going to ask a question that I forgot, hopefully, it comes back. 

Well with this in mind, what do you think sets print media apart from other forms of media? How can we leverage the strengths of print media to stay competitive in today's media landscape?

Aruoture Oddiri: Okay, now for Nigeria, for print media to remain competitive, you have to think about where print media is coming from. The paper mills used to be big in this country but now today, I think the number in the last five years, Nigeria has spent about 1.6 trillion. 

Host: Wow, Rotus with the numbers. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Yeah. 

Host: So we can verify these numbers.

Aruoture Oddiri: Go and verify these numbers. They are factual.

Host: Okay great. 

Aruoture Oddiri: So 1.6 trillion in the last five years importing paper products into this country, and you have the companies that are dependent on prints having to import so much, their costs are a lot. I think this data came from the Bureau of Statistics. So for the print industry to remain competitive, you've got to improve manufacturing and you've got to reduce their costs because what they're still facing is a high-cost barrier. What the internet has done again as far as assisting them in being competitive is distribution. But as far as the costs of getting those items to print, it's a lot higher than your radio. So for TV, you got to pay for cameras and you got to pay for equipment and so on. So Nigeria still comes down to an infrastructure issue that's affecting different sectors.

Host: Very, very interesting. And I also just think about how—because going into the costs and the issues Nigeria has with Forex—how we can do a lot more in our manufacturing because why should we be important papers? We have forests, we have the whole value chain to help produce this. But just listening to what you said, something came to my mind in terms of the actual operating model of print media compared to where technology has taken us, where you put things online, and the revenue that the print media guys have earned from actually selling these newspapers. I'm just trying to think about how they've kind of substituted the money that the people pay at the vendors’ stands now with the internet. So probably subscriptions, I don't know if I'm answering the question.

Aruoture Oddiri: You’re close. Thank you.

Host: So I just want to understand how that works.

Aruoture Oddiri: You’ve hit it. I was talking to the folks at DC News again. So that is the advantage I have with the insight there. The cost of producing a newspaper is anywhere from 2500 to 3000 Naira.

Host: How many?

Aruoture Oddiri: One.

Host: One? How much are they sold?

Aruoture Oddiri: ThisDay has one of the highest costs of about 300 or 400 Naira for a paper on the weekend, Punch or BusinessDay 250 or 300. So think about that. 

Host: No, no please pause. I don't get what you just said. You said the cost to produce one is between 2500 and 3000.

Aruoture Oddiri: Between 2500 to 3000. 

Host: And you sell for 300.

Aruoture Oddiri: Thank you.

Host: Wow

Aruoture Oddiri: So where do you make up the difference? Because you are importing everything that it takes to produce your paper. So it's very expensive. And then think about this, you are distributing in or rather, printing may be in one particular state—Lagos—you want to get your paper to Kano, to Imo state, to Zamfara, how are you going to do that? 95 to 96% of goods move by road in Nigeria, so you now have to add the extra cost of moving. So the costs are high, it is Ads that help papers stay afloat. So here's another thing, to your point, for the digital arm where papers now have social media and they're online, they have websites, and so on, digital Ads have helped but that is how they are bridging the gap because it's really expensive. Until we domesticate the production process, they're still going to be on the water, at least for print media.

Host: Interesting, thanks for that insight. I've been thinking really about how that works. So we need to, as you said, domesticate the production process—‘Buy Nigeria to grow the Naira’.

Aruoture Oddiri: There you go. You’re exactly right.

Host: Something along those lines.

Aruoture Oddiri: Right.

Host: Okay. So according to Statista, about 82 million people listened to podcasts in 2021. What role do you see podcasts playing in the future of news? And how are you leveraging this medium to reach new audiences?

Aruoture Oddiri: Okay, so again, we've got that Western divide here at home. Overseas, you're seeing podcasts grow and there is more fuel to the information waves to back up what you're hearing on the news and also with the other forms of media channels. So they're growing and they're having roads, expanding in popularity. Now, they're expanding here too.

Host: But?

Aruoture Oddiri: But there is this—income drives a lot in this country. Even the newspapers, your 250 Naira to N300/N400 newspaper, how many people?

Host: It’s still a lot. I imagine.

Aruoture Oddiri: Here's the insight I got from our folks at This Day. They sell more on the island, this part of Lagos, Victoria Island and Ikoyi because that's where the more disposable income is. In rural areas, how many people can afford to buy a newspaper of N300/N400 every day from Mondays to Fridays? So income is there. Now when you bring that to podcasts, podcasts are growing in popularity but the question now is whether it's the long form or short form because of data costs. How many people can afford to listen to a podcast for an hour and a half, two hours and so on? But it’s there, especially with our youth, they are more upwardly mobile, they're using phones, they are being more social media savvy, more internet savvy so it's there. But that income divide is not allowing podcasts to get the kind of growth that they need. It will get there but then the economy's got to grow and people have to be making more money. The telcos are cleaning out though. By mentioning data costs, the telcos' contribution to GDP is increasing so they're loving what is going on. But for podcasts to grow, there's a foothold here as far as us in Nigeria, but for now, I think— because, for content creation when I was with Nairmetrics, I did create some podcasts with them. It was a matter of, ‘Okay, how long should this be so that we can reach as many people as possible?’ But the digital channels did help to proliferate them across.

Host: Interesting, interesting. And that's kind of making me think about how long this podcast should be. But let’s see how that works.

Aruoture Oddiri: It is well-to-do people that consume PwC content. 

Host: No, we are trying to reach the ordinary people on the street. 

Aruoture Oddiri: For sure.

Host: But let’s see. The relationship between traditional news media and technology companies has evolved significantly in recent years with many news outlets now relying on platforms like Facebook, Twitter and Google for distribution and traffic. While this has provided new opportunities for news organisations to reach wider audiences, it has also created new challenges and tensions in the industry. How do you see the relationship between traditional news media and technology companies evolving in the future? It kind of in my head almost gives a lot of power to the technology company who are like the intermediaries, they are in the middle between the users and the news company. And what opportunities and challenges do you think this presents for both parties?

Aruoture Oddiri: The main challenge is one of compensation, you remember the case…

Host: Compensation to who now?

Aruoture Oddiri: So you've got the publisher, you've got the platform. The publisher is the news-generating outlet, the media outlet, that is your newspapers, and so on, and you've got the tech platforms proliferating them. But the thing is, the tech platforms are taking content from the publishers, they are generating clicks, selling ads from folks who come to read, and they are keeping all that money for themselves. So you see what happened in Australia in 2021, where they had that media bargaining law, Australia forced Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Alphabet, the parent company of Google—to compensate the publishers for the news that they are taking from their platforms and putting on yours.

Host: Yeah, but that is surprising. So you're saying that they never used to compensate?

Aruoture Oddiri: There wasn't. I mean, you can have a platform, a news outlet can have its own Facebook page… 

Host: Okay, got it.

Aruoture Oddiri: Can have its outlet through which it puts its content. But you still have— I mean, check online, any breaking news, you will see it everywhere when you proliferate on this platform. So Australia said, ‘Look’ and they are claiming that it has worked in that Facebook now has to compensate publishers through which it takes those content it takes. So going forward, the challenges will be the fact that you've got revenue that is falling for a number of these publishers, how they can come to agreements with the platform's revenue sharing agreements where they can get that. Now you mentioned subscriptions. Subscriptions are popping up. In fact for my job, to do my job and be accurate on Arise I have subscriptions with Bloomberg, Wall Street Journal and Financial Times.

Host: Does Arise pay for those for you?

Aruoture Oddiri: No, I pay for myself, Arise does take care of me in other ways so I'm expected to be able to do that. I took that extra step but there is free business news out there. But for me to get the most up-to-date, accurate business news as it is hitting—that’s the reason I have my audience because they come to me for the latest news—I have to pay for those online. And the reason why Bloomberg and the Wall Street Journal's and the New York Times and all these other guys erected those paywalls was that the internet decimated prints. I mean, I think the Wall Street Journal is still physically there. I was in Davos to cover the World Economic Forum and they were handing out free copies of The Wall Street Journal just to advertise.

Host: Free?

Aruoture Oddiri: Right there in Davos. So that is the cost that they have to take to get there. So they erected paywalls to try to make up for that income. But I had an interview with a gentleman on my show, and he said that the downside of paywalls is that you are limiting the amount of news that is being distributed. Because if in this room only you and I are the ones that can afford to get on a paywall and subscribe and get news, what happens to everybody else that doesn't have that income? So now…

Host: Sorry to interrupt.

Aruoture Oddiri: Yeah, go ahead.

Host: Is that not just similar to the regular news where I still have to pay to buy?

Aruoture Oddiri: So are you talking about physical papers? 

Host: Just say like, physical papers. I'm just thinking, is it not like…

Aruoture Oddiri: So the divide— Online news used to be free.

Host: Okay, got it.

Aruoture Oddiri: You could go on it. But now everyone is erecting a paywall.

Host: Okay, I see where you are coming from.

Aruoture Oddiri: Now if we get to a stage where everybody has an online paywall, and I understand the revenue challenges, they have to stay alive, they have to. Imagine a news outlet that has broadcasters and journalists around the world, you're paying for their feeding, you're paying for them to fly around, where's the money coming from? So that medium again. Back to your question between the publishers and the platform, there's got to be some kind of synergy revenue sharing where one person, the platform isn't ripping off the publisher.

Host: Yes, I like how you said it. You wanted to say one person isn't ripping off the other. But you decided to be specific, ‘The platform’ because most times the platform rips off the publisher and I imagine the platform's because they collect data, they are the— I mean, they can monetize data in different ways and sell data to other people. It's just an interesting time that we live in with technology.

Aruoture Oddiri: Jeff Bezos of Amazon owns the Washington Post right? I mean, you've got…

Host: So that brings me to—and maybe I should—because I was reading one time about the concept of data neutrality, net neutrality and all these things, right? So if Jeff Bezos of Amazon owns the Washington Post, why can't he configure Amazon, if Amazon is one of the outlets that the newspaper reaches people…

Aruoture Oddiri: Yeah.

Host:...such that you charge other guys higher (I mean the other publishers) so that it's easier for your business to reach people and generate more traffic than the other publishers? And we know there are a handful of these big media companies. So just imagine all of them owning their publishing outlets and they're able to channel the news they want at the expense of maybe factual news, I'm just saying.

Aruoture Oddiri: It will be a problem. So when the news broke that Bezos was buying the Washington Post, people were like, ‘Ah, he's a left-wing guy, he lives in California’, the independence of the paper now came into question. So, the man is hands-off, you won't see or hear— There is a need to make those entities separate. And it was a trigger for me to say, ‘Jeff Bezos and Amazon own’, Amazon doesn't own the Washington Post, it’s Jeff Bezos that owns the post. But you can see, because it's a tech platform we’re now conflicting them together. So they have to be separate entities, The Washington Post has to remain and keep up its integrity and so on. That separation has to be there, that entity, the media has to remain there. So if tech companies all take over then, ah, that will be a problem.

Host: Right. So Google's announcement in 2022, that it will block third-party cookies in Chrome, (and for those of you who don't know what cookies are because I was talking to one of my friends, who has been trying to lose weight. And he’s like, ‘what all these cookies that the system's offering me. I'm on a diet here.’) So cookies are for… I think they're scripts that help generate or get information from the users...

Aruoture Oddiri: Correct.

Host: ... for future purposes. Anyway, Google's announcement that it will block third-party cookies in Chrome browsers within the next two years has sent shockwaves through the advertising industry scrambling to find new ways to reach their audiences. Content publishers are excited about the prospects of holding on to their coveted first-party data, so how do you see the relationship between data privacy and the future of the digital economy? What role do you think publishers and advertisers have in shaping this future?

Aruoture Oddiri: I think that privacy is being eroded. If I'm using a non-publishing example, Google Maps. Every month, I get an email from Google Maps telling me where I've been, telling me every time I've used the map to tell me where I’m going.

Host: Interesting.

Aruoture Oddiri: There's a joke there with married couples. Essentially, I get an email and it tells me ‘You went from this point to this point at this time’, it itemises it. Now I wilfully use the application to do so. So with the third-party issue, you know that there are first-party cookies and then third-party cookies. Third-party cookies are attached to a domain that you are not using. So I'm on somewhere, shopping for ties or something and then a third party person is attaching a tracker. Google now… And they've been postponing this phasing away of the third-party cookies. They said they will do it in 2022 then 2023 and now they said they pushed it back to 2024. And they've come up with this thing, I think it's a sandbox API. The Application Programming Interface is where Google wants to phase out the third-party cookies and then bring in a more tiered system where they are more in control of who is tracking user data. But there have been detractors who have said that look, ‘Google, you're the one who…’, it was the fox guarding the henhouse essentially. Because Google profited from this. They made money. Facebook, all these folks. I think that there's a trade-off to where the more we are involved in online activity, our privacy is getting eroded. As far as what the publishers can do, the thing is, they're incentivised to sell our data, so they can get clicks and make money. 

Host: Yes, absolutely.

Aruoture Oddiri: So the sandbox API thing from Google is an initiative where they want to try and remove it, remove third-party trackers and make it only first-party cookies. Will it work? I think our privacy is gone.

Host: Rotus is pessimistic about this.

Aruoture Oddiri: The privacy is— There's a flip side to this. When you are a news medium and you’re putting out news, you've got trolls who come on and say insulting things, bullying, and so on. Now, the fact that Google, Facebook, and so on are getting more data about who is online and able to say whether it is this person…

Host: Oh, I see where you’re going with that.

Aruoture Oddiri: So with everybody, there's more identity management now. Yeah, so the trade-off is you are eroding your privacy but you know who the trolls are and you’re getting better at clamping them down. If a crime is committed, you can track online activity. I know that as far as getting data on phones, you might need a console and things like that but there is a trade-off. And unfortunately, I think the more we delve into the online space, the more our privacy is going to be eroded. That Google Maps thing, the first time I saw it, I was like, ‘What!’ But you know, I'm still single so I don’t have those issues yet. 

Host: Oh, wow, interesting time.

Aruoture Oddiri: But overtime, couples zones… Anyway, look, we’re just going down that road. 

Host: And we saw what you did there. Telling us you're still single I don't know why you did that. But okay, very nice. Very nice. Thanks. I was just kidding. 

So we’re going into emerging technology now, Rotus. So thinking about the never-ending malicious cycle of fake news, which I think you almost touched on just now. Blockchain can be used to permanently store and track records of online transactions and digital communications. This information within the blockchain system can easily be authenticated and tracked back to its source making it easier for readers to authenticate stories that can help curb the spread of fake news. Is this a technology which maybe you or Arise already use or is this a technology that's prevalent in Nigeria? It probably doesn't have to be blockchain. But is there any technology-based system that we kind of used to test the authenticity of news in Nigeria?

Aruoture Oddiri: No, I mean, we haven't started using Blockchain. We're exploring it at Arise. Some other news mediums are but it's still very nascent here as far as authentication. Look, we all use WhatsApp. We just came off at the election, who was authenticating it? Again, Meta is the parent, they have new checks where you can tell a message has been forwarded…

Host: …encrypted.

Aruoture Oddiri: …encrypted and all of that. But the responsibility still falls on us to authenticate using AI. The things that AI is doing right now. There was that picture of the pope in a puffer jacket with a gold chain. 

Host: Yes, it looked so real.

Aruoture Oddiri: Then Macron, apparently in a protest, where it also looked as if he was being attacked, Donald Trump just got indicted and there was a picture of police tackling him. They were all fake. And the thing is, I get tons of messages, ‘Rotus, is this real? I just heard this, is this authentic? Can you help verify it?’ So there's an opportunity for the media to step up, do its research work, and be able to then verify. So what I would do is you have to just do the work. 

How many news sites reported the pope in a puffer jacket? You won't see it anywhere. It's only on that particular source. How many news sites saw Macron getting attacked in a protest? By the way, just for our viewers and listeners, Macron raised the retirement age in France, pushed through an executive order, bypassed Parliaments and angered people. So if you're a French worker and you are getting to the age of retirement, he's saying that you have to work longer before he gets… So that's what the protests are for. So then this AI-generated image had him being attacked or escaping people. It never happened. He was never there. But this is being circulated in the French public generating anger like, ‘Yes, they should attack him, we’d lynch him!’ So we have to be careful.

Host: So essentially, you have to do your own KYC for yourself. 

Aruoture Oddiri: You got to do it.

Host: There's no sort of— Or maybe this is asking the question in different ways, is there like any NBC mandated penalty, for example, that you don't do your fact-checking properly and you report something? How does that work?

Aruoture Oddiri: Oh, we've been fined. 

Host: Okay.

Aruoture Oddiri: There was that big news of Channels getting fined about what now? So NBC is still doing its work. And there are questions around whether that's been politicised but there’s a regulator in place, the Broadcasting Commission. Now here’s the thing, if you don't do your work and you let out news that is not fact-checked, you will lose your audience because the moment you lose that trust, trust is the biggest thing for you. 

Host: Yeah, absolutely. 

Aruoture Oddiri: And in fact, it was in the news a couple of days ago. There is a new commission they're putting forward now where people can forward complaints about media houses and what they put forward. Now, I hope that is not abuse, where, just because you don't like what's been reported you now go there... Yeah, but specifically to your question in terms of being able to say, ‘Is this fake news or not?’ We’re not there yet. We in the media still have to do our work, to verify and make sure this is factual and then present what is real to the audience. Look, for example, there was (I won't mention the parties) but you probably know who it is, there was an on-air interview where the guests on our platform said that Joe Biden had congratulated Bola Ahmed Tinubu for winning. Now the US State Department did acknowledge he won, Biden never congratulate, but people who are watching were like, ‘Okay, Biden congratulated him’.

Host: I can see where it gets tricky for you. Because you're the one asking the questions and somebody's saying that.

Aruoture Oddiri: And you have to fact-check in real-time. So no tech can tell you.

Host: Yeah. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Even during our debates, we held a lot of debates for Delta gubernatorial, we had a fact checker who was sitting down right there, having to go through the stats and numbers we were putting out and all the things we say. So it's still a manual process for now. The tech through buzzer and so on might get there but it's an issue of where, when a fact is presented online, the details have to be authenticated against something as a benchmark and then— So it still…

Host: Yeah and I also imagine it's very tough when it's real-time, live. Just imagine saying something that's not factual and you immediately have to report that.

Aruoture Oddiri: Exactly. So I would have had to have known who or how many people had congratulated the presidency. Or as he's talking to doing a fact check. It is not easy man and its life.

Host: It’s not, it’s not. Quick messages to all the African moms out there who like to forward WhatsApp messages because I think those guys also need to fact-check. I received them from my mom…

Aruoture Oddiri: Oh my goodness.

Host: … and I’m like, ‘Mummy you’ve come again. Where is this from?’ 

Aruoture Oddiri: And they take it at face value. 

Host: At face value. 

Aruoture Oddiri: ‘Have you seen this, have you seen that?’

Host: ‘Oh, in your house something is happening.’ Mommy, I’m in my house. 

It's so interesting. But anyway, we hope that, as you said, at some point, maybe technology can help us or we can deploy technology in this part of the world to help do fact-checking. And the future is going to be immersive. A lot of companies are beginning to leverage these modern technologies in creating this immersive experience. I mean, we see what Meta is doing. Virtual reality is an exciting, emerging technology that promises to revolutionise the way people consume news by immersing viewers in the middle of a new story. Virtual reality can create a deeper level of engagement and understanding than traditional forms of media. How can news organisations like Arise TV create such virtual reality experiences that are accessible to their viewers regardless of their physical and social limitations? And how do you ensure this technology is understandable?

You’re already saying ‘ah’ so I feel like I know where your answer is heading. Let’s hear you.

Aruoture Oddiri: We went from how many people can afford a N300 paper to a headset. Meta’s headset that they just released is $1500, how many people can afford that? And I think the last time I was here at your Experience Centre, PwC experimented with Virtual Reality and things like that. You all show that you are at the forefront right as a business that is on this trend. So I thank you, guys, for what you did and for putting it out there. But it is costly. And Meta, Apple, Amazon, they're all trying to work with glasses that you can condense that information to where you won't have to wear a big headset because there have been health issues with wearing it for too long, being hot and so on. 

So virtual reality for news, yeah, you’re right, the pathway is there but the West is still figuring it out. So that cost metric of how you can get it to be affordable across the board. Ah, my brother, that's a long way. But yeah, it's exciting and as far as immersive technology and what it would mean for news, who knows, news could just be popping up in your face right on your headset in the future. So we're going to get there.

Host: And it is interesting to see a lot of other things that that kind of immersive technology can do. In a holistic sense, on digital innovation, journalism would always be rooted in objectivity and sport on storytelling, and in trying to integrate VR/AR experience into a larger picture like the Metaverse, do you believe that the Metaverse will change the way the audience consumes news? If yes, are you currently leveraging—you just said you are not—

Aruoture Oddiri: Yeah. 

Host: But how do you think that the Metaverse, for example, may change the way the audience consumes news?

Aruoture Oddiri: The Metaverse is really exciting. I know there was a Metaverse concert that was held.

Host: Oh, yeah. I saw that.

Aruoture Oddiri: Right. So now, for those, you didn't need virtual reality, you just had to hold up your phone and you saw these augmented images and so on. So in terms of that real-time, the imagery and what it can do, it's exciting. It's exciting. And if that is the way that you can allow you to bypass not having to get an expensive headset and so on, then that's going to work. I mean, I interviewed a rapper who was one of the first to perform in the Metaverse. 

Host: In Nigeria?

Aruoture Oddiri: In Nigeria, yeah. So it's getting there. It's just a matter of time because see again, internet broadband penetration is 40% here. We rely so much on the internet. Do you know the word network in Nigeria is a pejorative? It's negative. If somebody says network…

Host: Yes.

Aruoture Oddiri: …it means you couldn’t connect to it. But ‘network’ in another country just means the network. That tells you where we are. Look at what happened with the cash redesign. Look at the pressure it put on banking apps, they were collapsing, you couldn't log in. So for us to reach that level where the Metaverse is fluid and images are not breaking up and you’re getting virtual reality news in a clean, clear form—infrastructure—it still comes down to infrastructure. We talked about infrastructure with paper and print, and newspapers not having to import stuff. So the infrastructure has to be built up, if you get the infrastructure right, all these things will follow through.

Host: The infrastructure is still a big deal for us. And you hit a very painful spot when you talked about banking apps cause I still have my money hung somewhere on one of the banks. I'm not going to mention your name. Maybe off-air. 

Anyway, so I think now we're getting into what we like to call the fun part.

Aruoture Oddiri: Ah, okay. 

Host: So speaking of predictions, can you tell us what your last prediction was that you got wrong?

Aruoture Oddiri: Oh, that one's easy. The Monetary Policy Commission (MPC).

Host: What was your prediction?

Aruoture Oddiri: I predicted that they would hold 17.5% but they hiked it to 18%. So I got it wrong. And I got it wrong because month-on-month inflation was decelerating, year-on-year was accelerating but I thought they would hold but they're still raising interest. That has a lot of impact in terms of loans, costs and so on. So that was the last prediction I got wrong.

Host: So 18.5 now, as at when?

Aruoture Oddiri: It was 17. 

Host: So it was raised by 500?

Aruoture Oddiri: Yes. 50 basis points from 17.5 to 18. Yeah. So that's where we are now. I thought that they would keep it at 17.5. So that was the last prediction I got wrong.

Host: Oh, interesting. So can you make another prediction here and we will check in the next couple of months whether you were right or wrong?

Aruoture Oddiri: Okay you know what? This is a fun one. Well maybe not fun because it's hitting our pockets—fuel subsidies—whether they will be removed in June.

Host: Everybody get your pen. Rotus is about to make a prediction. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Yeah. I thought it would be removed, but with the language now, I don't think it will be removed fully. Maybe at best, it will be partially removed. He said he was going to yank it, right? It was supposed to be yanked off entirely.

Host: It was supposed to be yanked a while ago but then it was included in the budget up until June, which coincidentally the past administration leaves then the new administration has to tackle that burden. So it's very interesting but he(Rotus) is saying that it will not be removed.

Aruoture Oddiri: And I support it being removed. I think the fuel subsidies are a chain around Nigerians' necks. It's incredibly expensive, we can't afford it. It's people who are the big boys—Emekas—that drive their cars that are pumping fuel.

Host: By the way, Emeka being a big boy is not a prediction, it’s reality.

Aruoture Oddiri: That’s already a fact. So I predict they will not remove it—which will be bad—but I think they will fall into pressure and not remove it.

Host: Okay. Interesting. And we will check that in the next couple of months. I hope they remove it. As you said, it’s something that has been weighing Nigeria down. But I'm just thinking about body language, like you said because we heard in the news a couple of weeks ago the finance minister advising the incoming administration to raise VAT, raise taxes, just thinking about how that interacts with not removing… Anyway,

Aruoture Oddiri: I get you. You’re in power advising the next people on what you were supposed to do, interesting country. You guys are going to have a lot of great podcast content just being in Nigeria. 

Host: Oh my days, we can’t wait. So what is one view that you have—maybe you hold strongly to that view—but for some reason, a lot of people disagree with it? Or maybe few people agree with you.

Aruoture Oddiri: Oh, ha, okay. I'm non-religious. I worship technology. I think technology is a god. Yeah, that one gets me in trouble a lot of times. You know we're a very religious nation, right? So people tend to think that… So I feel that tech is like magic, right? Before I can send you an image through a phone, we're talking about VR. Look at where we've come from as humanity. How is this? How is it not godly? Not spiritual? The fact that you can do all these things, connect everything to a phone, WiFi? What? That's my view. A lot of people still say there’s somebody in the sky.

Host: No, no, you may be on to something. You know, the possibilities of the human mind amaze me, many times.

Aruoture Oddiri: It's incredible. 

Host: I fly a lot. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Yeah.

Host: But most times—even though I've done it many times—when I fly, I'm still thinking, ‘Oh my days, I’m in a tube, how many thousand feet above?’ And this was all done by humans, especially when you see rows of people. We don’t know what is going to happen to us but we’re all acting like it's normal. Planes now have WiFi. 

Aruoture Oddiri: You can be on air and be on WiFi. 

Host: And you can prank people, ‘Oh maybe I'm in the US’ or they think you are… But you're communicating with them until you get to their doorstep. Technology is going places.

Aruoture Oddiri: And you might, how many years from now that tube might be a drone, you might be flying with a jetpack yourself. 

Host: Oh wow.

Aruoture Oddiri: I mean, the UK, their work, their companies, I interviewed a startup company that is working on flying vehicles. Now I know there's going to be regulations. PwC might be doing this conversation we're having now in the Metaverse, it is just! So yeah, that's my view, I think the whole spiritual, godly thing is Tech. Yeah. I'm addicted to it, I think it's incredible. But a lot of people don't agree.

Host: I will take you up on this conversation off-air because if I wanted to start on this, I’m not sure we’d leave here today. So we have a tradition here where our previous guests pop a question for the next guest. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Okay.

Host: And it's a mystery question. So the question is, do you think you are disrupting your field? 

Aruoture Oddiri: Hmmm.

Host: Yes, think about it. I mean, do you have to think about it? 

Aruoture Oddiri: Well, I think the way I produce my segments is disrupted by— I produce all my segments on WhatsApp. Can you believe that? 

Host: No way. 

Aruoture Oddiri: I send a message to the guests on WhatsApp, whereby I ask them I'd say, ‘Okay, this is what we want to talk about, here are the talking points.’ Send messages to my graphics designer, I itemise everything; you can bold on WhatsApp, use italics, you can underline and all these things. Put all the graphics that I want.

Host: I didn't know all these. 

Aruoture Oddiri: And then talk to my producer and say this is the guest coming on. So we don't even have to speak. And then we are in groups. So the instant messaging fields from your Meta on WhatsApp, Microsoft and Teams, Slack… (Telegram that one is something… that's an unregulated wasteland).

But yeah, I think in the way that I produce news now you almost don't even have to speak anymore. If you take it back to how you used to produce news when you write and type and bring this it’s all…

So in terms of my most important items, I think if I rank four of them, it's my mobile phone, the keys to my apartment, the keys to my car and my wallet. I remember I lost my wallet and I wasn't really worried because I could just replace it. But with my phone, I'm transferring money, I have my data on there, I'm communicating, I am producing my segments for radio and television on my phone. So if there's any disruption, I think it is probably what instant messaging has brought. Look, weekends, holidays I'm still tuning in because it’s news. So I think my phone is my everything. I said I wasn’t in a relationship but I think I’m in a relationship with my phone. So it's just incredible how that device has condensed everything. The disruption is happening, it's the news production and how you're just doing everything on mobile devices.

Host: Very interesting. I'm so sorry for keeping you away from your phone for the past hour.

Aruoture Oddiri: She’s right here, I’m looking at her. She’s here on the desk. 

Host: Oh, sorry phone, you’d soon get back to him. Disruption is interrelated. And in that respect, we asked you a question from the previous guests. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Yes. 

Host: Now, what is one perspective you would like to get from our next interviewee? 

Aruoture Oddiri: Emeka, I am fascinated about what Covid did to work from home. And so I think that, personally, where we're sitting now, years from now, I don't know what's going to happen to the office. So my question for the next guest is, if Internet penetration, broadband penetration in Nigeria, reaches 90 to 95%...

Host: From what did you say it is now? 

Aruoture Oddiri: It's 40% now. If it increases…

Host: That's kind of doubling though. Let’s moderate...

Aruoture Oddiri: Or maybe 60 or 65. If the internet improves significantly in Nigeria, will you continue to work from the office? If you're not already working from home, what's your decision? Will you work from home or the office? Because I think that's going to change, so it will be interesting to get the opinions of everyone who are in that field, how they feel about working from home or the office, and if the internet improves, how that changes the landscape for how we’re productive.

Host: You couldn't have asked a more interesting question in these times because I also think about working from home and how it has changed a lot of things. So for example, working from the office may drive other ancillary activities. Maybe transporters, the guys where you go for lunch, all those other things connected to people moving and going out. But then it's convenient, it's easy, it's efficient.

Aruoture Oddiri: That’s the disruption.

Host: Especially in Lagos where you spend hours in traffic. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Oh yeah the traffic. Thank you for mentioning that. 

Host: For our next interviewee, we will be looking to see the kind of insights you give to this question. And so obviously, for the audience, you need to stay tuned, keep watching, and see how we get responses from our next interviewee. Rotus, it's been wonderful talking to you. The past hour has been very enlightening. For me and I'm sure for our audience.

Aruoture Oddiri: You guys at PwC with what you're doing, you guys are at the forefront of enlightenment. So I respect what you all do, big fan of your work, the work you've done and how you guys are still at the forefront of trends. Fantastic podcasts, keep doing great work. 

Host: Thank you. Thank you. And you know, we like that you came to our Experience Centre. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Yes.

Host: You know, we try to immerse people in technologies and like you said bring disruption to how people do business. So what do you think about our space right here? 

Aruoture Oddiri: Hey look, this space is Futuristic, if I can put a word there. I like the design, it's very comfortable, everybody seems to really… You can tell from body language whether people are enjoying their work and anytime I come here, people are smiling…

Host: And chill.

Aruoture Oddiri: When, chill. The Experience Centre is nice, you guys did some great work here.

Host: Thanks so much. We can't thank you enough. 

Aruoture Oddiri: Appreciate it. 

Host: Like I said it's been a wonderful one hour.